INT: What you were learning in terms of how to make a joke work, how to deal with Actors when they would have issues, and how that became, in a way, what you could then rely on. I mean, and I'm wondering whether if I said, “Well, are members of real--if you have memories in DICK VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW], that show, of some real problems that occurred and how they got solved,” so that you could say, "Ah. If I have an Actor who goes up or forgets lines, or an Actor who's resistant, this is the way to handle it."
JR: Yeah. Yeah, that’s interesting ‘cause one day, you know, as Carl Reiner used to say, "You know, life is good when the lunches are good." Now, we used to eat at Desilu [Desilu Studios] commissary where we had ANDY GRIFFITH [THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW], OUR MISS BROOKS, not necessarily all at the same time. Spring Byington was there, GOMER PYLE [GOMER PYLE U.S.M.C.] was shot there. I can't think of--so many shows were made on that lot that we used to have lunch together frequently. And Garry Marshall was there and he used to comment on the guy that all the cafeteria had an apron that looked like, as Garry [Garry Marshall] put it, he said, "That was used as a ground cloth for a Tijuana cock fight." And it was never washed. That was Hal [Hal Mohr]. That was his name, I don’t wanna--He ran the commissary and the commissary was ugly and the food was terrible, but the camaraderie of the people was wonderful. As Carl [Carl Reiner] would say, "The lunches were great." We would sit there and just have fun. Aaron Ruben was there writing on GOMER [GOMER PYLE U.S.M.C.] and ANDY GRIFFITH [THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW], and Danny Thomas was shooting at the time. And as I said, all those people were there. So one day, we were talking about family, I think, and Dick [Dick Van Dyke] said, Van Dyke [Dick Van Dyke] said, "Well my brother Jerry--" and we all perked up and said, "Wait a minute. You got a brother?" And he said, "Yeah, my brother--" "What's his name?" "Jerry Van Dyke." And Carl [Carl Reiner] went right into gear. I mean, what a mind. He said, "Is he, does he work in the business?" And Dick [Dick Van Dyke] said, "Well, yeah, kind of. He works--he does clubs in the south. He's a standup comedian and he plays a banjo," or something like that. And immediately, Carl [Carl Reiner] had—he said, "Do you think he come here? Would you like him to--if we could do a show about the brother?" And Dick said, "Yeah, I guess so." He was a little hesitant. And Carl wrote a two-part show called "The Sleeping Brother." I don't know if you recall it, but… His character, Jerry Van Dyke's character, was one who was completely cowed in life, and stammered, and was reticent until he fell asleep. And he had something like sleep apnea and he would fall asleep, or he'd be a sleepwalker. And as a man asleep, he would be the life of the party: outgoing, charged up, just incredibly fun-- very funny idea. "The Sleeping Brother.' And you knew, you knew that he was asleep, but he was manic and up. And when he was awake, he was diffident, and retiring, and shy. Okay, so he came along and Carl wrote this two-part episode, which was terrific. We loved it. And Jerry [Jerry Van Dyke] came in and he sat down in this company that reads, you know, like glass. And he was slow and hesitant in reading. And a warning light goes on, you know, I said, "My god, he's not gonna be able to really come up to snuff with this company. But maybe he's just one of those readers that's slow." And he read badly and we did the first day on our feet and he was so over his head that I thought, "Oh my god. He can't really do this. This company is so sharp. He's not even close." So what I did was, I got a football and I started to--I took a break and I started to play catch with some of the guys, and then I encouraged Jerry [Jerry Van Dyke] to get into the game. We'd throw a football. And the cast would look at me and say, "When are we--Hey, are we getting down to work?" I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's time. Okay. We'll get there." And I'd do a little bit on our feet, and he was awful. And Rose Marie came by with her usual smirk and said, "What are you gonna do Rob, what are you gonna do, John?" [Inaudible] [INT: I know, exactly.] "Shut up." So I said to Carl [Carl Reiner], I said, "This is a mayday.” I said, “I think we're in trouble." I usually don't do this. He said, "What's going on?" I said, "I--He's not getting it." "Why don't we take a look at what he did? Could we get some tape on him where he--if he's done anything at all?" And it turns out there was a piece of tape, but you could only play it at CBS 'cause it was two-inch tape. And we all trekked over, the whole company, and we played a two-inch tape, and he was playing this banjo, which we didn't know about at the time. And it was the humor was on the level of, "How could you tell a happy motorcyclist?" And the answer was, "By the bugs on his teeth." You ‘member those old jokes? [INT: Sure.] That was his kind of roadhouse material. And it was not too promising, but Carl [Carl Reiner] said, "Well, we could--let's have him play the banjo. That'll get us started." And we did. But it was torture that first week and I threw a football a lot. And allowed a little bit of rehearsal to go on, and the cast was giving me daggers because they're used to working. And I would not let them work. I was--didn't realize it at the time I was pulling them down to get nearer to his level, so it was like, I'm thinking of the Panama Canal. I don’t know why. [INT: The dykes there] I was lowering their expectations to bring him up, so that he'd feel a little more comfortable and get on with it, you know, and gradually bring him up. And Dick [Dick Van Dyke] was worried, and he would never worried about anything. But I said to Dick [Dick Van Dyke], I said, "You know, it might be a good idea if you talk to him on the weekend.” I said, “Maybe run some lines." I said, "Cause he's getting closer now. And I think he'll probably be alright." He said, "Yeah, that's a good idea." And Dick [Dick Van Dyke] did. Something we never, never asked for that. [INT: Right, right, right.] But on Monday, I said to Jerry [Jerry Van Dyke], I said, “I don't want you to act today. This is a technical day. We're gonna mark camera spots and just take it easy." Okay, and he did alright. And by the next day when we started to rehearse closer to speed, with cameras, he started to come up and I was hopeful. And on the night, he hit a home run. He was just terrific. [INT: And the lesson? And the lesson for you as you look at that?] Oh, the lesson was I was doing the right thing. I didn't know why, but obviously--the lesson was to bring everybody down--it was similar to when I had to bring the company down because I got them there too soon. They're so quick and slick. This Actor can't possibly get there. I don't know if he'll ever get there, but Dick [Dick Van Dyke] helped a great deal, I know, ‘cause he worked with him.

INT: Now bringing in new--this is an interesting issue--bringing in, you know, outside Actors, you've got, obviously, the company. I mean, here's ALL IN THE FAMILY, you've got the company of Actors. Here's THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, you've got the company of Actors. But there are, you know, the show may call for whoever to come in. [JR: Oh, yeah.] Let's talk about your casting process. What was the process? What is the process for you?
JR: I'd have people in for readings. Some people I knew and others that--I would read everybody. I learned that, to my horror, I once cast a guy that I knew from another show. I’d cast him in a western and didn't ask him to come in. And when I got on the set, I found the guy had been in an automobile accident, and he couldn't walk. The agent hadn't told us, naturally. And from then on, I said, "Look, I don't care if it's my own mother. I wanna see her in a casting session or at least come in and say hello," if it’s somebody that I wanna see they’re walking alright—they haven’t had a--

INT: Now, how do you run a casting session? What's the process for it?
JR: Well, the first thing to do is to clear the room of a lot of extra people. I don't want too many people. I wanna be there with the casting woman. In this case, it was--Jane Murray was later, but it was--my mind is gone. Can't remember the casting girl’s name--it'll come. Jane Murray was ALL IN THE FAMILY, but the casting office on DICK VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW] was also very nice people. [INT: And how would you work it?] Well, I would say, "Bring it not too many people." I said, "Do some weeding out on your own.” I said, “You know, there are some people that are just not gonna make it. Let's not embarrass them or embarrass me and let's not keep them waiting." I always used to worry about the Actor. I said, "Let's be very careful to not schedule them so close together that we wind up building up waiting room stuff." Not just for their anxiety, but I just, I like to take time with these people and just talk to them. [INT: And how much time would you talk to them?] Well, sometimes I take fifteen, twenty minutes, you know, I just--I wanna talk to before they've even read. I’d like to talk. We talk about a book. We talk about--I just wanna see how their mind work ‘cause I wanted bright. I didn't really care so much about the particular reading 'cause that could always be adjusted, [INT: Right.] except in Jamie Farr's case. You know, which he still hasn't got it. But I wanted someone who’s intelligent; that I could reach by a reference point. You know, I think I used the Ophelia before. So I--and then I would have them read, you know. And sometimes they were just right, and sometimes they weren't. And sometimes they were friends that--I would have them in--not because they were friends, 'cause I never did that, but if they were close, I would have them in. But sometimes they were not quite right and I'd say, "I'm sorry," you know. They're good friends--still good friends, but they had to read with a certain degree of intelligence and I'd have to know that their skills were there some place. And I only, I have to hear it once. I have to hear it at full throat, so to be speak, once. I don't care if it’s sitting in a chair. And after that—I don’t care what their process is. I know they're gonna be able to get it ‘cause I've heard the correct syncopation, so to speak. [INT: And you haven’t had that experience that--great in the casting session, lousy on the stage?] Oh yeah, I have had that. When somebody else has forced the casting. That has occurred. But usually I will say, "Wait a minute. I don't really feel right about this guy or woman." But I have had to let people go. You know, usually it's because someone else has begged, "Use this person,”--sometimes with the network pressure. Sometimes it was--there was a contractual agreement with somebody because they had something and I would say, "Jeez. We're casting this person for the wrong reason." And I was very harsh on that. If they weren't good, I'd say, "I’m sorry, I can't use them."

INT: Now, it's interesting. One of the great issues that comes up in the casting process, and you've done, you know, a slew of pilots, so you've gone trough the process. [JR: That's the toughest part.] And let's talk about it a little bit, this, because this is this great anxiety level 'cause obviously if the show hits and it becomes a DICK VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW] or ALL IN THE FAMILY, you got--or MACGYVER, you got yourself, you know, the golden ring. [JR: That’s right.] Now, how you get the golden ring and what are the things that are the golden ring, who knows? [JR: Very difficult.] I mean, I know that, as I think you've said before, that in both the DICK VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW] case, and in ALL IN THE FAMILY, they were, they were ready to cancel those shows.
JR: Not ready to, they were both canceled. People don't realize that THE VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW] was canceled after the first season. It was brought back on a fluke. ALL IN THE FAMILY was cancelled after the first 13. It was brought back because summer re-runs were popular. But they were out. If those shows had been done today, they're canceled after the fourth episode. No chance. You'll never see them again. And that's a crime. Mary Tyler Moore, same thing. Her show [THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW] was languishing in the ratings for the longest time until it suddenly caught on. People didn't like her ‘cause--"What's this wife of Dick Van Dyke doing being a single girl in Minnesota?" Audiences were not happy with that, but they gradually warmed up to it and said, "Okay, it's a different persona."

INT: Now, let’s go to the--So, knowing the anxiety level of the networks, the sponsors, agents, any that are involved in the process, in that casting situation where you're still gonna be the guy who's gonna have to get the performance, how do you work with that one?
JR: Yeah. Well, first of all, I would talk to the Actors privately and say, "Look, this is not an adversarial position." I said--a lot of Actors don't understand this, but from my point of view, and I dare say from every Director that I know, really we would love for an Actor to come in and be it, instantly, because our job is done with respect to that character. We love it when an Actor comes in and smashes, perfectly. So, I want you to understand that far from being an adversary, which a lot of Actors fear, they say, "Oh, this guy's not gonna like me" or "they're being too critical" or whatever, “the Director and probably the Producer, whoever else is in that room, they're gonna want you to be a hit, so we're on your side. So have the confidence to go in and know that we're not against you. We're very much for you.” And I know that bucked them up a lot, especially in the pilot process because that's when you have to convince a network, and the network usually had its own agenda. That's where a lot of mis-casting came from. Networks have made deals with certain Actors. They say, "Use so and so because we like her,” or, “we don't like this guy." And you would read them and you’d say, "They're not gonna make it," you know. And they'd have that hideous--it was like an execution chamber, where they would bring Actors into a room and it was kind of an amphitheater where the powers that be would sit up top, the head honchos would sit in the last row and they would say, "Act" or "be funny." And I would always sit in the first seat and look at the Actor and give them little calming gestures because when they were let in, it was like an animal being ready for slaughter. It was a terrifying process and you can't really be good, as good as you can be, for the most part, until they became processed. They would know, after awhile, how do you do that terrible audition. But young Actors, particularly, who were good enough to be brought to the network--brought to the network, I love that--were always very tense. And I would try to comfort them, and know that the one that I wanted was frequently one that the network didn't see, at all. I would like to cast against type. I would like to cast a little more dangerously, perhaps. But one of the big casting things on ALL IN THE FAMILY occurred when Norman Lear said, before we, we’re ready to go, and how I’d been hired as the Director, Norman wanted Cleavon Little to play the black guy next door. I mean the young kid, Cleavon! I said, "Wait a minute." Cleavon [Cleavon Little] happened to be a guy I know as an Actor--was very good Actor, "But Norman," I said, "I wouldn't cast Cleavon Little." He said, "Why? He's a wonderful Actor." I said, "Yes, he is, but this is 1970 and Cleavon Little will come on as a menace to white America." I said, "This character," like--and I'm talking Lionel [Lionel Jefferson], the young black kid, the friend of the kids. I said, "First of all, I think, whether he is or not, he looks too old. I think you need somebody who's 18, or in that vicinity who can be a contemporary of Mike and Gloria." And Norman [Norman Lear] said, "Well, if you can find somebody better, alright, but I think Cleavon's [Cleavon Little] the one." So I called Jane Murray and I said, "Jane, have you investigated a lot of Actors for this role?" She said, "Yeah. And Norman [Norman Lear] picked Cleavon [Cleavon Little]." I-- "You haven't made the deal?" "Not yet, but that's where he's leaning." I said, "Bring in the people you've seen that you think were close." [INT: Right.] They brought in black Actors--nobody. Nobody, nobody, nobody. Plus nobody. And I said to her, finally, after a long series of private sessions without Norman [Norman Lear], I said, "Can you bring in somebody that you overlooked and said they didn't have enough experience or whatever, bring them in, please." Brought in the people. Nobody. Nobody, nobody. And one day, the light bulb went on. A kid came in and it's like, you know, the old thumping heart? And I said, "Oh god, I hope this boy can do it." And I say, "Boy," in a nice way. I meant he’s a young man. I said, "God, please let this--" he looks, this is my, my idea. He's not threatening. He's funny. I mean, he looked funny--not that he looked funny, he looked good. He looked clean-cut. But I think he’s got a twinkle, so I talked to him and yeah, he had all that. I said, "Jeez, read this text." And he read it, and he was absolutely awful. He couldn't get a word out straight. And I thought, "Oh jeez, well that's too bad. Read it again." I said, "Try saying that word with this emphasis." And he tried. Eh, marginally better. Poor. I said, "Okay, tell me about some of your experience." He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "What experience have you had acting?" He said, "None." I said, "What do you mean, none? What do you do for a living?" He said, "I'm going to school." "Where?" "Los Angeles City College." "And what are you studying?" "Drama." "Oh, oh good. So have you been in the school play--any college plays?" "No." "Were you ever in a high school play?" "No." "A church group? Anything like that?" "No." "You've never been on stage anywhere?" "No." "What the hell are you doing here?" He said, "I was hitchhiking on Western Avenue and a guy picked me up, he was an Actor--a black guy--and he said he was going to an audition at CBS, they were looking for young, black Actors, and I figured, what the hell?" I said, "Aw, come on." He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, nice try. I'm glad to see you." Then I wrote down, "Okay, forget it,"--in the drawer [Rich mimes placing the note in a drawer]. And I continued to see another thirty people, you know--Nobody. And my mind kept going back to that first instinct when I said, "Gee, this guy looks right." So I called him back in and I said, "Do it again." And he read it, bad. And I gave him a lot more direction and he did it better and I thought, "Oh god, is this possible?" So I said, "Come with me" and I took him into Norman Lear's office. In between, Norman kept saying, "Where's the guy? I'm gonna assign Cleavon!" I said, "Don't do it. It's a mistake." So I brought this young man in to see Norman Lear. I said, "Read this." And he read it, awful. And Norman [Norman Lear] looked at me and was like, "What kind of salami is this?" [INT: Right, right, right, right, right.] So I said, "Read it again with this intention and this,” whatever, I gave him some stuff. He read it again, always a little better, but there was an intelligence. So I said, "Wait outside." And Norman [Norman Lear] said, "Are you thinking of that--" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Are you crazy? You know you’re going--this is live! You know, you can't edit the tape." It's live on tape. Did you know that? The first thirteen weeks, you couldn't edit the tape. I said, "Yeah. I really think so." He said, "Well, it's your ass." He said, "But boy, you're really sticking out your chin." [INT: Right, right, right.] I said, "I have a feeling about this guy." It was—Mike [Mike Evans], help me. I can't think of his name now. Isn’t that awful? The kid who played Lionel next door. It was the, it was that guy. [INT: And he played the part?] He played the part! I got him.

INT: And how good did he get?
JR: Oh, well, now he jumped around 'cause we paid him 20 cents, you know, it was almost nothing. But I talked to him in rehearsals and I said, "Look, you don't have that much to say, but you're with a group of people--" why can't I think of his name? [INT: Don’t worry, it'll come to you.] Terrible. [INT: It’ll come.] Mike Evans. [INT: There you go. See?] Geez. I said, "You're gonna be working with a troupe of Actors who know how to wait for laughs." I said, "They've all been on stage.” I said, “Maybe Sally Struthers is a little behind on that, but Rob [Rob Reiner] knows how to do this and Jean [Jean Stapleton] and Carroll [Carroll O'Connor] are masters at this sort of thing." I said, "You must never talk into a laugh. Wait for it to roll and then come in on top of the laugh. It's a technique that you'll have to learn because--" again, the audience will not laugh when it's mystified. I think you've gotta be very careful with the straight line, that it's heard, and understood, and clearly enunciated, so I don't want you to be too anxious to speak. Always speak after the fact, you know, if you have to. "Okay." So I drummed it into him, but I said--and I kept reminding him. I said, “You don’t wanna”--I said to Norman, by the way, I said, you know, "If he doesn't work out, you can always send him off to college and you bring in Cleavon [Cleavon Little] if you want to--[INT: Right, right, right.] “And that'll be the guy next door. But I really…” He said, "Well, okay. You know, geez,” mutter, mutter--wrong. So, on the night, when we first did the show, everybody talked into a laugh except Mike Evans. He was perfect. [INT: Great.] And he read his lines perfectly. I mean he finally got it. [INT: That’s great.] And he became part of the cast. And of course, he was a non-threatening, young, good looking young man who could tease Archie Bunker and Archie would take it in good stride, and think, "Isn't that fun?" You know, ‘cause Archie would say to him, "What are you gonna be when you get out of college?" And then he would go into that Uncle Tom and say, "I want to be electrical engineer." And then Archie would laugh, "Ha! You see that, the kid?" But he could only do that because he had that sweet face. You couldn't do it if you were Cleavon [Cleavon Little]. He’d say, “Go out Mao Mao, we’re all gonna get you.”

JR: And it happened again, it's funny, with Norman [Norman Lear], much later--four years later and Norman came to me apologetically one day and he said, you know--oh, first it happened this way: Mel Stewart, who just departed our life, I’m afraid, who played the bigoted guy next door, but he was not the real Jefferson. Our intention was to never show George Jefferson. [INT: Right.] This was Henry [Henry Jefferson], his brother, who always came over and he was the anti-Bunker [Archie Bunker]. And he was as bigoted in the black way as Bunker was for the whites. And he kept talking about his brother who was really bigoted. And he's so rough that he won't even come outside and be seen in a 'honky' neighborhood. So we kept this character off-stage and it was like the fairy tale monster that was worse 'cause you never saw him. And one day Mel [Mel Stewart] came to me and he said, "I have the chance to do a pilot. Can I get out?" I said, "Well Mel, we only own you--" we had a seven out of thirteen contract, which is not completely binding. [INT: Right.] I said, "I can't stop you. Are you sure you wanna do it?" He said, "Yeah." Well, too bad for Mel [Mel Stewart], the show flopped, I mean, his pilot. But I said, you know, “We were now forced into bringing on Henry Jefferson, I mean, George Jefferson. Excuse me. And could you give us some time? He said, "Well, I've got a month." You know, I said, "Great." So we sat down and wrote a script presenting George Jefferson. Okay. Now we got close to that week and Norman [Norman Lear] had been in New York and he said, “You know, I usually don't do this, John.” And he said--and by the way, he was very careful. A wonderful Producer in the sense of casting--always right together. We had to agree. [INT: Great.] It was great. But he very apologetically, he said, "I had to move fast and I cast George Jefferson in New York." My face fell. I mean, because I knew right away I’m in trouble. [INT: Right.] I didn't really know. I said I was hoping it might be good. I said, “Who is it?" "Avon Long." Does that name mean anything to you? [INT: No.] I said, "Avon Long? The dancer?" He said, "Yeah, how'd you know he was a dancer?" I said, "How did I know? I saw him in PORGY AND BESS in 1941, I think. My god, Avon Long? He's gotta be 100 years old." He said, "No, no." I said, "Have you seen him?" He said, "Well, I--Yeah, ''I've met him." One of those "uh huhs." I think he, he--He remembered Avon Long, who was very sprightly. [INT: From ten years before?] He was a wonderful dancer. [INT: Right.] “Bess, I got some happy dust.” [Laughter] He was, he was the pusher that used to slide across the stage on his knees and sell drugs, you know. And he was great, but I said, "Oh god, I know this is a disaster." And sure enough, the first day reading around the table, here was George Jefferson in the form of a doddering, older man, who read [slowly] "My name is George Jefferson,” and oh boy! If I had Rose Marie in my head, it was, “What you gonna do, John [John Rich]?” [INT: "--do now, John?"] So, after the reading I said to Norman [Norman Lear], I said, “Jesus,” I said, “don’t you think he's too old?” I said, “My god!” He said, “Yeah, he’s a little older than I thought, you know.” He said, “Well, work with him.” I said, “Oh, okay.” So, we get on our feet--hopeless. The end of the day I said to Norman, "Look,” that was Thursday night, I said, “Norman [Norman Lear], he can't do it." He said, “Well, try. Keep trying. I’ll look at it tomorrow night,” Friday night. [INT: Right.] We went through the day and it was hopeless. And we did the run-through--by the way, our run-throughs in those days was really a run-through, because by the time I presented it for Norman [Norman Lear] and if there were other Writers--Don Nicholl and Mickey Ross [Michael Ross] and Bernie West [Bernard West], our Writers--I would have a performance. They were off book in a rehearsal hall, but they were completely working. [INT: Now, was that a three day prep--] Three day. [INT: Three days in which--in the Sheldon Leonard way, you were not alone.] Three days, they never came near me. They were writing the next week, which is what they should be doing. Instead of--what happens today is the Writers come down on the set and they ask for a run-through on first day with the cameras--I mean, I don’t mean cameras, but the Actors are walking around with books in their hands. I said, “How can that be a run-through?” And then they rewrite based on that, but they haven't even—[INT: Even had a chance to let it live.] They even haven’t allowed Actors’ process to begin. [INT: Yeah.] I mean I want it to soak in. I mean, you talk about rehearsal hours--ten hours a day reading over and over and over again. Stopping to investigate, to ask questions, to say, “Wait a minute. Why do you say that?” And the Actor would say to me, “Well, It’s in the text.” And I said, “Yeah, but it’s not responsive. Let’s get another line here. What would you really say if somebody said that to you?” And the Actor would say, “Well, how ‘bout,” and we’d say, “Yeah, let’s try that.” We would rewrite on our feet. I remember Archie [Archie Bunker, Carol O’Connor] one day--and what does a Director do? The very first day Rob Reiner started to sit down in his chair, in Archie's chair, and I said, “Hold it, hold it.” And in mid-stop, I mean, it was halfway down. He said, “What, what?” I said don't ever sit in that chair,” I said, “that’s Archie’s chair.” Now, that became a character touch--that, where’d that come from? My father. He had a chair in the house--you didn't sit in. And that became a runner for the life of the series; “Get out of the chair,” you know. “Alright.” The only two people who sat there was Bea Arthur once as the antagonistic sister of Edith [Edith Bunker], her cousin, and Sammy Davis [Sammy Davis, Jr.] will be placed in the chair, gave him the place of honor, but everybody else, “Get out of that chair.”

JR: What was I--I just diverted myself. [INT: We were talking--I think you got in the--you were gonna tell a story about Archie in reference to…] Oh, with George Jefferson. [INT: Yeah.] Yeah, sorry. So friday night I presented run-through. Man was hopeless. George said, I mean Lear [Norman Lear] sighed and he said, "You know you're absolutely right, he can't do it." I said, "Listen, he's a sweet old man, and you're gonna--you hired him, you fire him. I'm not gonna say this." And he did. And he understood. Avon [Avon Long] was a professional, [INT: Got it.] but not up to it. You know, it's not his fault [INT: Right]. He just--he became like you and me. We're old. [INT: Yes.] Well, I'm a little older than you. [INT: Nah, a week.] [laughs] [INT: Did--?] Anyway, let me finish that thought. I looked at Lear and I said, "Norman, for four years now you've teased America with the character of George Jefferson living next door, the ogre that you're not gonna see. And now, we've written the script where we're gonna meet him." It's Friday night 8 o'clock, and we don't have George Jefferson. What would you suggest?" He said, "We'd better call Jane Murray." So we called in Jane, and I said "Jane, who've you got lying around that you saw for the role?" She said, "Nobody." And Norman came back from New York [INT: --And said this, Avon, right.]--“I got it!” I said, “Well, do me a favor,” I said, “We're gonna come in and rehearse tomorrow and Sunday; never did that. I said, “Get me anybody--hopefully off the stage--theatrical performer, black, who can play this part. Find me somebody.” She was wonderful. She found a touring company of PURLIE VICTORIOUS playing in San Francisco, she made a deal for an Actor to come down. Saturday morning he was given a call and Isabel Sanford, who played Louise, the wife, she took me aside and said, “You know, I rode up in the elevator with some shrimp of a guy, is that going to be my husband?” I said, “You can hope so.” She said, “God, he’s so small.” I said, “Let’s hope it might work, I don’t know. If you can say his name right, he’s go the part.” And again I said to Norman, “If he’s no good, scrap the pilot--or scrap that episode, and put somebody else in and, you know, okay.” Well it was Sherman Hemsley. [INT: Right.] And he was very slow at first, and I was “Uh oh, uh oh.” But anybody would be slow in that company, they were so fast. They were just so on top of it. But we worked all Saturday, we worked that Sunday. We did cameras on Monday, and Tuesday night he was a smash. And how does an Actor get a role like that which became 20 year career on one of most popular shows in America, THE JEFFERSONS. Fluke. Simply a fluke. And why do Directors have to cast their own material [laughing]? Because we know something that sometimes the Producer doesn't understand. Now it takes me back to a negotiation in New York, first time were were negotiation as the new Directors Guild of America [DGA]. We had taken on RTDG, Radio Television Directors Guild. Frank Capra in the chair. And after a few unpleasantries because network negotiators were used to pushing around the RTDG guys, and they were not gonna push this group around. And we got to a point where the argument came on about casting, and they were not allowing Directors to cast in live television, can you imagine. At that--this is 1959, 60 around there. And I said, you know, its ludicrous, said “Why do we not want Directors to cast their own material?” Sometimes there's an Actor that you can't work with, sometimes no, it's going to work, or not going to work. Who would know better? I said, Besides, it makes for a better product. Wouldn’t you be interested in that?" And Dick Freund, who was the negotiator for ABC [American Broadcasting Corporation], said the following immortal words, he said, "Well we at ABC reserve the right to be bad." Can you believe that comment? And I said, "Well I--" --by this time I had learned. I had had seven years at the feet of master negotiators. And I said, “Hold it, hold it. Get me--put that pad over here will, ya?” And I got a legal pad and having the floor, I said, “Let me write this down. 'We--',” and I did this slowly, "at ABC reserve the right,” and I wrote it out slowly. I said, is that what you said, Mr. Freund?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “And do you stand by this remark? He said, “Yes, I do.” I said, "Well--" Here’s where the chutzpah comes in I guess. I said, “You know by an odd coincidence, because I own a few shares of ABC stock.” Not a lot. It was actually about 100 shares. It was modest. I said, "But I happen to know because of that that there’s a stockholders meeting tomorrow in New York. And I plan to attend this meeting." I said, "And I’m gonna take this little quotation with me and read it to the assembled shareholders. That okay with you?” His face fell: “You wouldn’t.” I said, “Of course I would. You stand by it, don’t you?” Well, I said I’ll tell you what, I said, "We're gonna talk about casting, but only if you retract this stupid comment. He said, "Okay, I take it back." And we got casting for our guys. [INT: That's great, that's great. And essential, as you well know.]

INT: Putting together the all--the original cast for ALL IN THE FAMILY, were you part of that process?
JR: Not the original, original. [INT: Well, the original was an English cast.] No, no, no. There were two originals that Norman Lear and Bud Yorkin in partnership had done for ABC in which Carroll O'Connor and Jean Stapleton were indeed same characters, but the kids were all different and the first--and I saw that pilot, it was not good. And the three people were bad, and Norman said, "Yeah, they were." And then they did a second pilot, and I commented about the camera work, but I said, you know, "Poor Bud got trapped, because I know that studio, and there's a big wall where a camera has to be for a good close up. And you can't shoot it in that studio." He said, "You know, you're right, we had that troub--" I said, "Okay." But the three people they had recast were no good. You had Mike [Michael "Meathead" Stivic] and Gloria [Gloria Bunker-Stivic] and the black friend, and I don't know who the hell they had, but, they were just-- Six people were no good. [INT: Wow.] So we came to where Gene Stapleton and Carol O'Connor, of course, were wonderful. So now we're casting the other roles. [INT: Now you're in this] Now I'm in on it. And I said, you know, what I would do in the the VAN DYKE SHOW [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW], I used to look up into the grandstand during rehearsals, and even though it was a closed set, I would say, "Who is that hulking teenager up there?" They'd said, "That's Rob Reiner." I said "Who's that?" And they said, "Carl Reiner's son." And I said, "Oh." And he was always morose and depressed. And always looking ugly, and awful, but kinda paying attention to what was going on, but not a happy camper. In fact, I remember that when I was doing GOMER PYLE [U.S.M.C.], I needed a hippie. Oh, there's an interim thing. Carl called me one day, Reiner, and said, "Would you do me a favor?" I said, "Yeah, sure. What?" He said, "My son, Rob, is in an off-Melrose production." I said, "Rob Reiner? The hulking teen-ager?" We just talked very freely. He said, "Yeah." I said, "He's an Actor?" He said, "Well, he wants to be. Will you come and look at the play?" I said, "Sure." So I went to the play. Awful. He couldn't have been worse. And Carl said, "What do you think?" I said, "I think it's terrible." He said, "You're right." Okay. [INT: [shouts]] Again, we go back to honesty, you know? 'Cause remember, on VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW], particularly, Carl used to emphasize, "Let's tell the truth here." Where is the truth of this material? Let's give up the laugh to get the truth and the better laugh will ensue." In fact, Carl was always fond of saying, I would say to him sometimes, "Carl, we can be better here." And he'd say, "Well, what can we do?" I'd say, "I don't know. You're writing it, but I know there's something wrong here." And he'd mutter a litlte bit, but he'd go back and write something better. [INT: Great.] And I would--it was Willy Wyler [William Wyler] saying to the Actor, "Do it again." It's like the old thing. I'll know it. It's like the pornography, Potter Stewart, "I'll know it when I see it." [INT: Right.] And I did know it when I saw it. Carl would come back with better material, or the Actors would sometimes do something and I"d say, "You can do better." [INT: So what you do here? Did they?] So here's Rob Reiner, the hulk, and terrible. And a year or so later, he asked me again. "Would you come and watch?" I said, "Well, he's a little better, but he's still not really good." But I remember the character, when I was directing GOMER PYLE, I needed a hippie that had that sullen look. And since he was now a professional, sort of, I cast him. And he was terrific. And I remembered that character. I said, "My god, that could be Mike." Of course, Norman knew him, and he agreed almost immediately. He said, "That's Mike. That's Meathead." Sally [Struthers], I didn't know. She came in on an open audition. And I told you already about Mike Evans [character name Lionel Jefferson]. That was gonna be Cleavon Little and I got Mike [Mike Evans].

INT: Now, in subsequent times, because you'd become such a successful Director in this particular form, were you shown more respect? Let's say if now somebody's hiring you to do a pilot, would they now be more respectful? Even differential of your choices? Did that happen in your career?
JR: Oh yeah.